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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have been looking for a CCW .45 for some time. I have looked (and shot) the glock, colt, ruger & S/W all great guns. However, I have not been able to fine a bersa thunder 45 to rent. All the ranges have stated they don't rent because of reliability. All the research I have done there is very little negative feedback on the Bersa irregardless of cal. My question is why is there so much bad talk about the Bersa? Most of the negative statments are mad from IMO are people who think they can shoot but really dont know how. I know I will catch crap for that but it is true. And for the record I am an ex-cop, ex-military, and was on the Air Force EST teams as a sniper. So I think I know how to shoot and shoot well. Your responses are welcomed
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
I have/had a Bersa 380 until my wife took it for her full time CCW. Never had any issues with reliability at all. Many people equate inexpensive with "cheap" and aren't looking past multi-thousand round range session reviews to see other types of value in what they might buy. Some guns are not made to have thousands of rounds poured through them. You will see Kel Tecs get the same bad rap but those on this forum who know better carry them all the time as pocket guns. Store owners will also steer you away from these less expensive models to sell the name brands at higher margins. You are right to ask for reviews here. You will get honest commentary from experienced owners.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Many people equate inexpensive with "cheap" and aren't looking past multi-thousand round range session reviews to see other types of value in what they might buy. Some guns are not made to have thousands of rounds poured through them. You will see Kel Tecs get the same bad rap but those on this forum who know better carry them all the time as pocket guns. Store owners will also steer you away from these less expensive models to sell the name brands at higher margins. You are right to ask for reviews here. You will get honest commentary from experienced owners.
+1 to all of that :smt033

I especially agree with the fact that people view inexpensive as "cheap". I personally haven't heard anything bad about any of the Bersa models, although I don't know anyone who owns a .45 Bersa. People with more experience with Bersa will chime in I'm sure :smt1099

-Jeff-
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I have no doubt about Bersa. It took a while for me to find a local dealer who had some Thunder 9's in stock. The range I use has many rentals, including a Bersa with (at that time) over 5,000 rounds on it. I bought a Bersa without ever having fired a shot through one. More than 3,000 flawless rounds through two Bersa pistols later I have never regretted that decision. Doubt if you will either.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I think alot of the people who purchase Bersa firearms tend to be new to guns and are attracted to the low price, Many people who are new to guns don't understand how to break them in, clean, and maintain them properly all of which will lead to reliability issues. My wife has a .380cc and she loves it. We would definitly buy Bersa again.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I spoke to a store owner in PA today about Bersa (and other lower cost models). He said that the ATF routinely hassles gun store owners about the paperwork for these low cost firearms. He showed me what amounted to an ATF "hit list" for these inexpensive guns. Bersa, Kel Tec, Astra, Star...It seems as they are essentially a hassle to inventory for shop owners so it can be tough to find some of them under the glass in the store. This scrutiny doesn't outwardly seem to transfer to the eventual buyer but my guess is that the ATF keeps a special record of persons who purchase these guns.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I think alot of the people who purchase Bersa firearms tend to be new to guns and are attracted to the low price, Many people who are new to guns don't understand how to break them in, clean, and maintain them properly all of which will lead to reliability issues.
That's an interesting way to look at it. Good point Drew.

-Jeff-
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Bersa Sales

I wouldn't rent them if I were a gun shop owner. They're under 300$, so not much of a markup. They're reliable, so no smithing charges. They also might make someone go, "why don't I just get that one for 350.00 instead of this $1400.00 Springfield 1911 (now there's a gun you can make some money on.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Bersas haven't been adopted (or, to the best of my knowledge, even tested) by any major military or law enforcement agency. This means that objective, easily accessible test results don't exist. Thus, their short- and long-term reliability and durability are in question.

I know that they've been tested by gun rags, but gun rag "tests" seldom expend more than a couple of hundred rounds, and tend to gloss over any failures anyway.

And I know lots of people on the internet post about their excellent Bersas. But once again, we almost invariably see opinions based on low round counts, usually just a couple hundred rounds. I think this may be partially because serious shooters who expend lots of ammo are generally attracted to guns with longer and deeper track records than Bersa can currently produce.

While Bersas may indeed be excellent, long lived, totally reliable pistols, I haven't seen anything that objectively establishes such. I can, however, easily access test results with multiple sample guns firing thousands (or tens of thousands) of rounds with Beretta, Glock, SIG, HK, and S&W, for example.

I'm not saying Bersas are bad pistols at all - I know several people who are very pleased with their Bersa .380s. But I think this is why you see "doubt" about them. When someone takes thirty randomly selected Bersas and puts 10,000 rounds through each of them, then reports mean rounds between failure, number of broken parts if any, and accuracy before and after...well, then I will start taking them seriously as service pistols (assuming they survive the test).

And I think I have a reasonable idea of how to shoot, and what good shooting looks like. :mrgreen:
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I can, however, easily access test results with multiple sample guns firing thousands (or tens of thousands) of rounds with Beretta, Glock, SIG, HK, and S&W, for example.
You forgot XD! :goofy::anim_lol::anim_lol:

I definitely agree though, and I wouldn't mind seeing tests like that with some Bersa models simply out of curiosity.

-Jeff-
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
You forgot XD!
I intentionally left the XD off the list because I am unaware of such tests. Do you have a link to any?

I know people here think I hate XDs, but I actually think it's a very good pistol (just not quite as good as another that shall remain nameless). I would very much like to see some objective tests on it, though, with multiple gun samples and high round counts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I intentionally left the XD off the list because I am unaware of such tests. Do you have a link to any?
http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/SPstory11.php
I know this is posted on the springfield site, but this is the only one that I know of as of right now. I'm sure it might be a little biased :smt083, and it's not a multiple gun test, but that's the one I have bookmarked :mrgreen: I'll have to do a search and see if I can find any others. Interesting point though, as this is not a multiple gun test.

I know people here think I hate XDs, but I actually think it's a very good pistol (just not quite as good as another that shall remain nameless).
:anim_lol:

-Jeff-
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Wife luv's her BERSA T380.

Not many rounds thru it though. I bought it for her as a CCW she can carry, but she picked it out.

She has had 3 "stove-piping" in the last 350 rnds......but I attribute them to the wife relaxing her grip and limp wristing.

I personally haven't had any particular issues when I shoot it. Took some adjusting to get it sighted in though.

My observartions:

PROS:
1. cost $$$$$
2. good CCW size
3. safety features
4. Very accutate at 8-10 yrds

CONS:
1. Caliber size in .380 (for me)
2. Hard on the hands after 60+ rounds
3. Field stripping is a challenge

oh......not a con of the actual gun......extra mags are HARD to find.

I personally decided to go w/XD9sc as my CCW.

Good luck:smt023
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Heh, that article was originally from Handguns magazine. I wonder how big the Springfield ad was in that issue? :mrgreen:
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Heh, that article was originally from Handguns magazine. I wonder how big the Springfield ad was in that issue? :mrgreen:
:anim_lol: I thought you might like that one. I have actually searched and not found any others. Interesting, considering they're trying to compete with Glock the most (atleast it seems that way :numbchuck:). You'd think with as long as they've been out, you'd have some independents carrying out tests very similar to Glock tests. Maybe I just can't find them, but I tried and didn't really see any others. I'll just put 20,000 through mine and see...nevermind then I wouldn't be able to clean it like a freak....but it could be 20,000 through a clean gun! :smt033 :smt082 If anyone else has any links to other tests, I'd be interested to see.

-Jeff-
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
:anim_lol: I thought you might like that one. I have actually searched and not found any others. Interesting, considering they're trying to compete with Glock the most (atleast it seems that way :numbchuck:). You'd think with as long as they've been out, you'd have some independents carrying out tests very similar to Glock tests. Maybe I just can't find them, but I tried and didn't really see any others. I'll just put 20,000 through mine and see...nevermind then I wouldn't be able to clean it like a freak....but it could be 20,000 through a clean gun! :smt033 :smt082 If anyone else has any links to other tests, I'd be interested to see.

-Jeff-
I am seriously thinking of dropping the 2500 bucks it would cost to do a real independent test on an XD-9. I have worked with the State of New Mexico to develop several measurement tools in regards to testing students in tobacco, alcohol and drug consumption so I have a bit of history in the field of testing. I have gone so far as to contact my local range and Riclin firearms (Our local gun school) to see what kind of help I could get in facilities and supervision and they love the idea. My next step is to contact some ammunition production companies to see if I could get a brake on the ammo to do the test. I know I’m dreaming but I would love to put 20,000 rounds down range over the course of 6 months and really put an XD through its paces.

As far as the Bersa My wife has a Bersa Thunder .380 and it is extremely reliable.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I am seriously thinking of dropping the 2500 bucks it would cost to do a real independent test on an XD-9. I have worked with the State of New Mexico to develop several measurement tools in regards to testing students in tobacco, alcohol and drug consumption so I have a bit of history in the field of testing. I have gone so far as to contact my local range and Riclin firearms (Our local gun school) to see what kind of help I could get in facilities and supervision and they love the idea. My next step is to contact some ammunition production companies to see if I could get a brake on the ammo to do the test. I know I’m dreaming but I would love to put 20,000 rounds down range over the course of 6 months and really put an XD through its paces.
That would be amazing and I would love to see it/read reports. I have a feeling the XD could stand up to the tests Glocks have been put through. Good luck with the process and definitely keep us updated! :smt1099

-Jeff-
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
That would be an interesting test, but it still wouldn't hold a candle to the testing some other guns have gone through. Glock, Beretta, SIG...these have all had hundreds of sample guns put the wringer with tens of thousands of round each in military and LE testing. One gun is a good start, but it's still not much a sample size.

How many rounds do you have through the wife's Bersa .380?
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
That would be an interesting test, but it still wouldn't hold a candle to the testing some other guns have gone through. Glock, Beretta, SIG...these have all had hundreds of sample guns put the wringer with tens of thousands of round each in military and LE testing. One gun is a good start, but it's still not much a sample size.

How many rounds do you have through the wife's Bersa .380?
Mike,
I would like to take this opportunity to point out that I have heard these arguments before. Oh, can't remember 10 or so years ago, when this new Austrian pistol hit the U.S. market? :smt033
Are your points invalid? No. Everyone starts somewhere is my point.

And while this is not a test, the results of this, mmmm, experience, are heartening.
http://www.handgunforum.net/showthread.php?t=7111
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
That would be an interesting test, but it still wouldn't hold a candle to the testing some other guns have gone through. Glock, Beretta, SIG...these have all had hundreds of sample guns put the wringer with tens of thousands of round each in military and LE testing. One gun is a good start, but it's still not much a sample size.

How many rounds do you have through the wife's Bersa .380?
Yeah its true you really cant get that kind of testing unless your pistol gets put into intensive service. The Wifes bersa has just over 1000 rounds. I know its not that much but not a failure yet.
 
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